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The Life and Legacy of John Lewis

Hosted by Michael Barbaro, produced by Lynsea Garrison and Clare Toeniskoetter, and edited by Lisa Tobin

A look at the extraordinary life of the civil rights icon.

michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.”

[music]

michael barbaro

Today: The life, lessons and legacy of John Lewis. I spoke with my colleague, Times editorial board member, Brent Staples.

It’s Monday, July 20.

Brent, I want to start by going back with you to the time when John Lewis and others began engaging in nonviolent protests as part of the civil rights movement. Where were you during that period?

brent staples

Like everyone else at the time in the middle ‘60s, I was sitting with my parents, watching television —

archived recording 1

[MUSIC] It’s 11:00 p.m., and time for the reporters and the news.

archived recording 2

Good evening. Bad news for Alabama today. Some school desegregation strategy has backfired.

archived recording 3

Policemen occasionally clubbed demonstrators and used a variety of other tactics designed to break their spirit.

brent staples

— and the nightly news of the scenes of people being ravaged by the police in the South in the streets. And I became attuned to the revolution that was unfolding in the South, where people had put themselves in harm’s way to highlight the injustice of Southern apartheid.

archived recording

The Southerners, white and Negro, spattered with ketchup and mustard, sugar, salt and pepper, were carted off, unprotesting to jail.

brent staples

But as I became more politically active, I had difficulty — probably natural difficulty, understanding how one would put oneself on the line to be actually beaten and bloodied, and what the utility of that was. And by that time, the movement in the South had evolved some way.

archived recording

(SINGING) No more brothers in jail. Off the pigs! The pigs are gonna catch hell.

brent staples

By ‘66, you began to get the Black Power slogans.

archived recording

They don’t want us to use Black Power. I got news for them. [LAUGHTER]

brent staples

So I came into consciousness in my teens as a Black Power figure.

archived recording

This is not a riot, it is a rebellion.

brent staples

It was empowering.

archived recording

Number two, you are to be proud of your Black brothers and sisters at Fifth, because a honky cop touched one of them, and they told them, you’ve got to touch all of us.

brent staples

But it took some time into my late teens to begin to understand what had happened coming up to that. And that is when I become aware of what had passed before when I was a younger kid.

michael barbaro

In other words, it took you some time to understand why the nonviolent figures had taken the approach that they had taken.

brent staples

Yes.

michael barbaro

So I want you to take us through John Lewis’s life and how this philosophy you just described was shaped and how it evolved. So where does that story begin?

brent staples

John Lewis, he grows up in rural Alabama near Troy, Alabama. His parents initially were sharecroppers. And you know, sharecropping was a successor form of slavery. So John was born into that. And his parents, they were lucky they saved enough money to buy a farm.

But he graduated high school, segregated high school, and wanted to go to Troy State College, which didn’t admit Black people. And he applied and sent in his information. And he never heard back. And he wrote a letter at one point to Martin Luther King. And I presume he wanted some help in desegregating Troy State.

And Martin Luther King sent him a roundtrip bus ticket. And he went and he met King, and they formed a relationship. The substance of that, I don’t know, but it was extremely influential for John. And he left Troy not long after that and moved to Nashville.

[music]

brent staples

He went to seminary in Nashville. And there, he met some of the early civil rights figures. He met James Lawson — Reverend James Lawson — who was kind of a philosopher of nonviolent resistance. Lawson had studied Gandhi’s nonviolent movement and the strategies that Gandhi had deployed against Britain during the colonial period. And he’d come back with a deep sense of what the philosophy was and how powerful nonviolence could be.

michael barbaro

And what exactly is the philosophy?

brent staples

I have John’s memoir here. In 1958, I think it is, Jim Lawson mentions to him the idea of, quote, “redemptive suffering.” And he explains that it affects not only ourselves, but it touches and changes those around us as well. It opens us and those around us to a force beyond ourselves. A force that is right and moral. The force of righteous truth that is the basis of human conscious. Suffering puts us and those around us in touch with our consciences. It open and touches our hearts. It makes us feel compassion where we need to and guilt if we must. So this idea, to him, this redemptive suffering, it is at the heart of the philosophy of nonviolent protest. At the very heart of it. This is a good paragraph from the book:

“One method of practicing this approach, when faced with a hateful, angry, aggressive, even despicable person, is to imagine that person — actually visualize him or her — as an infant, as a baby. If you can see this full-grown attacker who faces you as a pure, innocent child that he or she once was, it is not hard to find compassion in your heart.”

But then it wasn’t just a tactic. It was a way of life. It was embracing the biblical prescription that one must love one’s enemies. That’s a biblical prescription. And it’s the hardest thing in the world to carry out.

michael barbaro

Well, so how do we start to see this get carried out among Lewis and these seminary students in Nashville?

brent staples

Well, Nashville was itself at the time another southern town, where if you went into a restaurant and sat down the people would just look at you and the waitresses would say, sorry, this place doesn’t serve [EXPLETIVE]. And that would generally be the end of it. But these students came in that place and sat down and asked to be fed. And when they were told that they were not served, they stayed.

And they took a lot of abuse from it. And people spat upon them, beat them, battered them, and poured condiments over their heads. All kinds of things. And I remember our friend, David Halberstam, our former colleague, was working at a newspaper there at the time. He was working at The Nashville Tennesseean. And this is one of the things he wrote:

“The protest had been conducted with exceptional dignity, and gradually, one image had come into prevail — that of elegant, courteous, young Black people, holding to their Gandhian principles, seeking the most elemental of rights, while being assaulted by young white hoodlums who beat them up and on occasion extinguished cigarettes on their bodies.”

So you see John Lewis and others being carried away in these, really, suits and ties and crisp white shirt. And basically refusing to walk themselves, being completely passive and nonresistant. And this worked out extremely — I mean, in a very short period of time, it worked out extremely well in Nashville. After three months of sit-ins, the city basically caved and became the first major Southern city to begin desegregating public facilities.

michael barbaro

So very early on, the protest that John Lewis is beginning to participate in, after he meets Martin Luther King and begins to understand the strategy, they are starting to show real signs of effectiveness.

brent staples

Oh, yeah.

michael barbaro

These peaceful, nonviolent protests.

brent staples

Exactly. Yeah. This is astonishing thing, to me, to this day, to practice the non-violent approach to life. To really embrace it, one needs to understand that the person who was extinguishing a cigarette in your throat because you want to sit down at a luncheon counter is as much a victim as you are. What John was saying — you, in pursuit of justice, you cannot let violence win your heart. That if you do that, you’re surrendering, really, to the dark force that you’re trying to defeat.

michael barbaro

Brent, you’re reading from a memoir that is written in the later years of John Lewis’s life. But my understanding is that this philosophy that he embraced and that he practiced, it was not entirely a foregone conclusion that this would be the way that it went, and that the March on Washington is an example of a moment where we see a young John Lewis grappling with which path he’s going to take. Can you tell us the story of that speech?

brent staples

Well, you see, what I finally figured out is that by the time John Lewis, at the age of 23, gets to the march on Washington — this is the most important public gathering of Black people in the century — he has already been on the Freedom Rides. Integrated groups have taken buses into the deep south to test laws that forbid segregation on interstate transport. He’s been arrested on those trips for going into white-only bathrooms. He’s been beaten just for being on buses with white people. In the end, John ended up being arrested, like, 40 times.

michael barbaro

Right.

brent staples

And if you look at some of the pictures of the mugshots when he’s arrested, you can see him smiling because he’s basically saying, you think you’re afflicting me, but you’re playing into what I want to do. But he’s still 23 years old. That’s all he is.

And he basically comes into Washington with a speech. And this one somehow found its way into public. And one of the striking things about it, he tells people to get into the street and stay in the street until the revolution is finished. And he names the sort of racist segregationist senators by name. And state governors, too.

michael barbaro

Wow.

brent staples

I’m going to read from it.

“We won’t stop now. All the forces of Eastland, Barnett, Wallace, Thurman won’t stop this revolution. The time will come when we will not confine our marching to Washington. We will march through the South, through the heart of Dixie, the way Sherman did. We shall pursue our own scorched earth policy and burn Jim Crow to the ground nonviolently.”

michael barbaro

Wow. And to explain that reference, he’s referring to the Union General who literally burns large sections of the South during the Civil War.

brent staples

Yes, he’s referring to William Tecumseh Sherman. “We shall pursue our own scorched earth policy and burn Jim Crow to the ground nonviolently. We shall fragment the south into a thousand pieces and put them back together in the image of democracy. We will make the action of the past few months look petty. And I say to you, wake up, America.”

michael barbaro

Brent, that language doesn’t sound, even as it invokes the word, nonviolent. So what do you think that he meant by those words in that draft?

brent staples

Well, I’ve come to figure out what he meant. Now, understand, as I was saying earlier, by the time he renders this speech, he has become steeped in the nonviolent impulse. But his frame, he was portraying it as a forceful measure that could be as powerful and changing, as was the sweep of Sherman through South Carolina and Georgia. What you have here is, John is working at a very high concept here, right? He’s working at a high concept. He’s saying, we can be — he was essentially arguing that nonviolent protests could be transformative. As transformative and as disruptive as war as carried out by the most feared general in the Union Army. That is itself a very powerful metaphor. And it’s a testament to his beliefs and what his approach could do. And he was calling upon hundreds of thousands of people to come out into the street and make that a reality. But that’s a high concept. And on the evening news, you can imagine you’d end up with a snippet of a scorched earth Sherman burning Atlanta again.

michael barbaro

Right, it might get lost in translation. It might actually undermine the very thing he’s trying to promote.

brent staples

Exactly. So basically, A. Philip Randolph, Martin Luther King, those guys prevailed on him to make some changes in it. They were talking about, let’s not do anything to just not give them a sound bite that’s going to give us trouble. I can hear him saying it. I don’t have the tape, but I can hear them saying to John, let’s not give them a sound bite that’s going to give us trouble. You can say it’s a revolution. You can call people on the street. You can even call them the Black masses, if you want to, even though that sounds like communism, right? You could say those things. But let’s leave off Sherman for next time. Right? [LAUGHS] So Sherman goes out.

archived recording (john lewis)

We march today for jobs and freedom. But we have nothing to be proud of. For hundreds of thousands of our brothers are not here.

brent staples

He talks about marching.

archived recording (john lewis)

The time will come. We will not confine our marching to Washington. We will march through the South, through the streets of Jackson —

brent staples

We will march through the street of Jackson, through the streets of Danville, through the streets of Cambridge, through the streets of Birmingham.

archived recording (john lewis)

But we will march with the spirit of love and with the spirit of dignity that we have shown here today. [APPLAUSE]

By the forces of our demand, our determination and our numbers, we shall splinter the segregated South into a thousand pieces and put them together in the image of God and democracy. We must say, Wake up, America! Wake up!” For we cannot stop, and we will not and cannot be patient. [APPLAUSE]

brent staples

So this is pretty much the same. But Sherman is missing.

michael barbaro

So in terms of thinking about the speech that John Lewis drafted versus the one he delivered, on that historic day, you’re saying it’s not that the earlier version of the speech shows John Lewis questioning the nonviolent approach. It’s that he believed in the nonviolent approach, but that the language he contemplated using — his belief that the power of that approach could be as powerful as burning — that was determined to be potentially counterproductive to the nonviolent approach he believed in.

brent staples

Exactly. But he talks about going back to his hotel room after that first conversation and just being livid because, of course, it’s a 23-year-old man’s speech. And a 23-year-old man who had been beaten to an inch of his life while fighting for dignity for Black people. I’m sure he felt entitled to say any damn thing he wanted to. Because he had the credibility of the streets behind him and the people in the Douth beginning to know who he was. And they were going to really know who he was, come two years later at the voting rights march at Selma.

[music]

michael barbaro

We’ll be right back.

[music]

michael barbaro

Brent, tell me about that. I mean, let’s talk about what happens after the March on Washington, after John Lewis’s rhetorical wings are ever so slightly clipped, but he does deliver the essential message. How do we see this concept of the power of nonviolence actually play out over the next couple of years?

brent staples

The next big data point becomes the voting rights struggle in Selma, Alabama. Now it’s important, I think, to dilate for just a second for the modern listener.

The modern listener needs to understand that in voting arrangements in the South, before the Voting Rights Act, local registrars had complete authority to do whatever they wanted with people who came in to register to vote. They could give you a test and then say you failed it so you can’t register. And they did that all day long, all day, every day, to Black people.

In Virginia, a college-educated woman, Black woman, who I believe was a teacher, went into register at one point and filled the application. And the registrar handed her a literacy test. You know what it consisted of? A blank sheet of paper. He asked her, what does this say? And she looked at it and handed it back, and she said nothing. He said, you’re wrong. You fail. You can’t register.

Elsewhere in the South, they might ask you if you came in to register to vote, how many bubbles are there in a bar of soap?

Elsewhere, a famous example in the film “Selma,” where a woman had come in to register one year, and they asked her, how many judges are there in the state of Alabama? And she didn’t know. They said, well, you fail. And she came back the second year. And he said, how many county judges are there in Alabama? And I think it was 67. And she said 67. And he said now, before you register, you have to name them.

michael barbaro

Aw.

brent staples

So this was what life was like for Black people seeking to vote in the South. Now John Lewis’s organization, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, had already set up a voting rights project in Selma and had been working on that. But it came to fruition in 1965, where people had been fed up. And so they staged a march from Selma to Montgomery to protest in favor of voting rights for Black people.

And then that fateful day, on the Edmund Pettus Bridge, they were walking. State troopers came out and said, this is unlawful.

archived recording

It would be detrimental to your safety to continue this march. And I’m saying that this is an unlawful assembly. You have to disperse. You are ordered to disperse. Go home, or go to your church. This march will not continue.

brent staples

You cannot march.

archived recording

Troopers, here, advance toward the gate.

See that they disperse.

brent staples

And then John said to the sheriff. He said, can I have a word? Because you know he’s in the front with his little off-white trenchcoat on. And now there’s a thing about this trenchcoat, right? It’s very light, so you can see him standing out from everyone else. And the other thing about it is, once blood gets on it, you can really see it. So I’m sure that that was premeditated. So he comes out front, and he says, can I have a word? No, you can’t have a word. And the troopers begin to advance. And they beat holy hell out of those people. They sent 58 people to the hospital.

John Lewis suffers a fractured skull. And by the time the film is flown back to New York to be shown on the air — and it’s really one of those films where you see these people running. You see tear gas and these billy clubs just going up and down, just beating the shit out of people. And because John was in front, you could see him holding his head where he’d been hit. And it was on the ground.

archived recording

Can we have somebody take somebody to a doctor? [CROWD CLAMORING]

brent staples

That, in my opinion — I’m not the historian here — but in my opinion, that was the ultimate triumph of the nonviolent approach and the suffering approach as he was saying.

michael barbaro

Why triumphant?

brent staples

Well, it was triumphant because even people who had tried to look away from what was happening in the South were forced to see the long arm of the law persecuting people publicly. Not just perscute, trying to kill them publicly. And also, the Voting Rights Act was pending at that time. And after this happened, Lyndon Johnson addressed a joint session of both Houses of Congress, I believe, and said —

archived recording (lyndon b. johnson)

It was more than 100 years ago that Abraham Lincoln, the great president of another party, signed the Emancipation Proclamation. But emancipation is a proclamation, and not a fact. A century has passed, more than 100 years since equality was promised.

brent staples

We cannot delay any longer.

archived recording (lyndon b. johnson)

A century has passed since the day of promise. And the promise is unkept. The time of justice has now come.

We shall overcome.

[music]

brent staples

So the Voting Rights Act was signed later that summer in August. It didn’t take long. So when people come in to register to vote, you can no longer ask them how many bubbles are in a bar of soap, or to name every judge in the state. This is a big leap in our time.

michael barbaro

So quite literally, there’s a straight line between the scene of what happened on that bridge, and something John Lewis knew would be so powerful — the concept of nonviolent suffering — and the legislative remedy back in Washington that resulted.

brent staples

Yes.

michael barbaro

Because the world had seen this happen.

brent staples

Right. Yeah, I think so. But also, you begin to see the sort of apex of this message really is ‘65, ‘66. And at some point, then, John is replaced in the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee presidency by Stokely Carmichael, a fiery orator and one of the primary enunciaters of the Black Power movement, that was more consistent with the emerging radicalism of the time.

michael barbaro

And that was the movement that you felt a part of.

brent staples

Yes. That’s where we came into the story, you know?

michael barbaro

Brent, on some level, you and your cohort must have thought that this approach, the John Lewis approach, had limitations. Given that by the time you were a teenager, or maybe even entering your early 20s, there was this new philosophy taking hold of a more elbows out, less restrained approach. So how do you think about that?

brent staples

Well, it’s interesting. And I do think about it. What had happened, really, is every generation, until it educates itself, thinks its experience is unique. So we thought we were unique. My cousins and I, and we had our big meetings, and we had our press conferences. And we had a different rhetorical stance.

But in the end, the tools were exactly the same. The tools were the sit-in of the administration building. The tool was the sit-in in the street that ran through campus. The tool was the building takeover. These were the same tools, man. I mean, I had bigger hair, right? Right? And I’ll send you a picture. I’ll have [INAUDIBLE].

michael barbaro

Please do.

brent staples

I have good hair, though. But if you look back on it, the tools were the same.

michael barbaro

And it was a foundation that had already been built, even if you didn’t see it that way at the time.

brent staples

And even if you didn’t know it. You know what I’m saying? Even if you didn’t know. I keep going back to this point earlier in this story, when they were doing the Freedom Rides in 1961. They had a big Chinese dinner in Washington, that people were going off on these Freedom Rides. And a lot of people wrote their wills, because they thought that they’d be killed — there’s a chance they’d be killed and never come back. And they referred to the meal at the Chinese restaurant as “the last supper.”

So these people were willing to put their lives on the line, were willing to accept the possibility that they would be killed in the pursuit of justice, and that their dead bodies laying out in public would be part of a sacrifice that would advance the cause of justice. That’s profound. No?

michael barbaro

Mm-hmm. So with all that in mind, Brent, how are you thinking about John Lewis’s legacy at this moment, as we talk in the middle of yet another critical moment in this movement, and when the work is still understood to be very unfinished.

brent staples

You know, John Lewis, in the waning days of his life, was heartened and overjoyed to see the global protests that unfolded after the killing of Mr. Floyd. He talked about it as part of the extension of his work. And one of the things he said, he essentially — I’m paraphrasing — he said, the thing’s out of the box now. He said, there’s no going back from this.

michael barbaro

Hm. And what about the principles of his life? How are you thinking about those in this moment?

brent staples

Well, I think that, as you see, his point of view was borne out.

archived recording

[SHOUTING] Don’t touch me! Don’t touch me! Don’t touch me.

brent staples

The other day, The New York Times had a story in which it had 64 examples, video examples of police brutalizing peaceful demonstrators.

michael barbaro

Mm-hmm, I saw it.

brent staples

Right? Now, what is that?

What that is, is what John was talking about. He was talking about this kind of injustice perpetrated on people who did not deserve it, did not warrant that kind of treatment. And also, we’ve been seeing in this unfolding of the Floyd protests in — it’s a repeated theme in the news stories — white suburbanites, middle class white people, who supported the police unquestioningly, right? They have changed their minds.

michael barbaro

Hm.

archived recording

[CROWD CLAMORING]

brent staples

The real persuasive thing is seeing people walking around in the street with signs, unarmed, not doing anything untoward, and be brutalized. That turns out to be the most persuasive thing for the society and for the people to whom it has happening.

archived recording 1

Don’t resist! Don’t resist! Don’t resist! Don’t resist, bro.

archived recording 2

I’m not!

archived recording 3

Don’t resist, bro.

michael barbaro

Hm. In other words, we are again seeing this idea of the beloved community playing out, the Gandhian philosophy, this biblical approach that you described.

brent staples

Yes.

michael barbaro

It’s working. It’s painfully working again.

brent staples

Yes, it’s painful. Lord knows it is. It’s painful. But abuse of the people in public — people’s constitutional rights — through violence by police organizations, has broad, rippling consequences. It’s having broad, rippling consequences. It’s beyond the people who you beat up who now don’t have confidence in the police. And John saw all that.

archived recording

[CROWD CLAMORING]

michael barbaro

Brent, is there anything from Lewis’s memoir that you haven’t already shared that you want to leave us with?

brent staples

Well, I don’t know if it fits. But perhaps we should just put that aside and read from one of John Lewis’s favorite poems. It’s “Invictus” by William Ernest Henley:

“Out of the night that covers me, black as the pit from pole to pole, I thank whatever gods may be for my unconquerable soul. In the fell clutch of circumstance, I have not winced nor cried aloud. Under the bludgeonings of chance, my head is bloody but unbowed. Beyond this place of wrath and tears looms but the horror of the shade. And yet the menace of the years finds and shall find me unafraid. It matters not how straight the gate, how charged with punishments the scroll. I am the master of my fate. I am the captain of my soul.”

[music]

michael barbaro

Brent, thank you very much. We really appreciate your time today.

brent staples

Well, good to be with you.

[music]

archived recording

Boy, Congressman Lewis joins us now for his first network TV interview since the protests over the death of George Floyd began. Congressman John Lewis, it’s so good to see you. I can’t tell you, you are such a sight for sore eyes today. It’s really good to see you. What would you tell, Congressman, young people, and people, quite frankly, who are not so young, about the best way to seek justice? You know, there’s been a lot of controversy, a lot of talk about the looting. And we should stress that most of the protests were very peaceful. But there was some looting. There was some disruption. What would you say to people about the best way to achieve justice?

archived recording (john lewis)

It was very moving. It was very moving to see hundreds and thousands of people from all over America and around the world taking to the streets, to the roadways, to stand up, to speak up, to speak out, to do what I call “getting in trouble.”

During the ‘60s, the great majority of us accepted the way of peace, the way of love, the philosophy and discipline of nonviolence as a way of life, as a way of living. There’s something cleansing, something wholesome, about being peaceful and orderly, to stand up and with a sense of dignity, and a sense of pride, and never hate.

Dr. King said over and over again, “Hate is too heavy a burden to bear.” The way of love is the much better way. And that’s what we did. We were arrested. Yes, I was beaten, left bloody and unconscious. But I never became bitter or hostile, never gave up. I believed that somehow and some way, if it becomes necessary to use our bodies to have redeem the soul of a nation, then we must do it. Create a society at peace with yourself.

[music]

michael barbaro

That’s it for “The Daily.” I’m Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.

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This episode includes disturbing language, including racial slurs.

Representative John Lewis, a stalwart of the civil rights era, died on Friday. We take a look at his life, lessons and legacy.

On today’s episode:

Image
Mr. Lewis in 1967. “Our struggle is not the struggle of a day, a week, a month, or a year,” he said, “it is the struggle of a lifetime.”Credit...Sam Falk/The New York Times

Background reading:

  • Mr. Lewis, a son of sharecroppers and an apostle of nonviolence who was bloodied at Selma, Ala., and across the Jim Crow South in the historic struggle for racial equality, and who then carried a mantle of moral authority into Congress, died on Friday. He was 80.

  • Bipartisan praise poured in for the civil rights leader, as friends, colleagues and admirers reached for the appropriate superlatives to sum up an extraordinary life.

  • Mr. Lewis risked his life for justice, The Times’s editorial board wrote.

Tune in, and tell us what you think. Email us at thedaily@nytimes.com. Follow Michael Barbaro on Twitter: @mikiebarb. And if you’re interested in advertising with “The Daily,” write to us at thedaily-ads@nytimes.com.

Brent Staples contributed reporting.

“The Daily” is made by Theo Balcomb, Andy Mills, Lisa Tobin, Rachel Quester, Lynsea Garrison, Annie Brown, Clare Toeniskoetter, Paige Cowett, Michael Simon Johnson, Brad Fisher, Larissa Anderson, Wendy Dorr, Chris Wood, Jessica Cheung, Stella Tan, Alexandra Leigh Young, Jonathan Wolfe, Lisa Chow, Eric Krupke, Marc Georges, Luke Vander Ploeg, Adizah Eghan, Kelly Prime, Julia Longoria, Sindhu Gnanasambandan, M.J. Davis Lin, Austin Mitchell, Sayre Quevedo, Neena Pathak, Dan Powell, Dave Shaw, Sydney Harper, Daniel Guillemette, Hans Buetow, Robert Jimison, Mike Benoist, Bianca Giaever and Asthaa Chaturvedi. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly. Special thanks to Sam Dolnick, Mikayla Bouchard, Lauren Jackson, Julia Simon, Mahima Chablani and Nora Keller.

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